EE Preview: Moto Naleesh

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Moto Cormatai
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:14 pm

FWIW, I just played my current CE legal BM deck, and figuring the trait as well as the starting honor, I would have won by honor 2 full turns earlier, and that would have made a difference between winning and losing. I took 3 provinces which would have been a total of 10 honor for the BM's at each battlefield, thus the win would have been easy. I understand that the personality base is different, but gearing the deck for an honor deck which takes 2-3 provinces to slow down the opponent seems to be a valid strategy from my view point.

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Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:58 pm

Moto Naranbaatar wrote:It wasn't ruled.

It is because the rules for the Battle Resolution resolves in separate steps. You'll first be destroying the enemy units (trait activated), and just after this you will destroy his province (trait again).
It's wording states: "After you destroy a province or army in battle resolution as the attacker: Gain honor equal to the number of Battle Maidens at the current battlefield."

Noticing the "or" in between "province" and "army" suggests you can choose one or the other not both. Though I can understand because it's a trait why it could be used on both occasions.
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Moto Jahk-Fwah
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:14 pm

Dont forget that a lot of paragon cards have 4 focus value... Which is pretty good for tacing with... Or so I hear.
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Moto Jahk-Fwah
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:33 pm

Shinjo Dalu wrote:
Moto Jahk-Fwah wrote:uhhh guys.. don't forget that our paragons SHOULD be played out of the tactician box. don't use that paragon box garbage and splash tacs in your paragon build for free cards.

ugh!
Eh......not sure about that one man. Its fairly safe to assume that most of the Paragons we see will be based on the 5 starting honour. So deliberately running them out of a box that not only has zero synergy with the personality base, but also makes the Personality base inherently more expensive (at least in the early game) seems like a particularly bad choice. Maybe the Commander box may be of more use in a fight, but again, I cant shake the feeling that having 5 starting honour will be helpful to a switch deck.

While PotM isn't exactly my favourite SH that we have, it would be what I would try running BM's out of for the time being, it is a switch deck, and I know that that SH will gain about 6-10 honour a game, which isnt terrible, especially as doing so means you are hurting the opponent. Granted, I do believe that most games will be won militarily.

Also, yes you gain the honour from both resolution destruction and from the box.
/offtopic
the paragon box has as close to zero synergy with a military deck as you can get...forget that the deck can switch because it still needs to go to battle and the box doesn't help you do that. *if* you sleaze a province, you're 25% closer to military while being 5%-15% closer to honour victory, while *if* you win an opposed battle you're 25%-50% close to a military win.... its win more.

also, we have at least 4 maidens in ee that have 4PHR and you only need to buy a single one for honour to be able to get everyone else.

also keychain or the FL stay home tactician will also net you enough honour to buy even 6phr maidens on the cheap...1 body at full and you're golden.

just try it... you'll see that paragon cards have high focus values and make excellent tactician cards as well... throw in some cards that make ji-yun a tactician and laugh...
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Iuchi Toshimo
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Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:27 am

Moto Jahk-Fwah wrote:
just try it... you'll see that paragon cards have high focus values and make excellent tactician cards as well... throw in some cards that make ji-yun a tactician and laugh...
And all those 4s which help tacts make oddly good duelers as well...

Still, such as it is, I played about 10 "EE" games yesterday, using only known cards, and Naleesh lost me both of the games she came out. There is too much access to single unit marginalization available to everybody. So yeah, I would of been better off buying two people.

I realize two games isn't a trend, but my enthusiasm has waned.
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Coopernicus
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Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:35 am

Moto Jahk-Fwah wrote:Dont forget that a lot of paragon cards have 4 focus value... Which is pretty good for tacing with... Or so I hear.
Might as well throw Duel of Haiku in there! Open Control action that draws a card sounds pretty awesome for both military or honor. This is actually a serious statement. I think that BMs could get a lot of mileage out of rap battles.
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Shinjo Dalu
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Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:46 am

Moto Jahk-Fwah wrote: the paragon box has as close to zero synergy with a military deck as you can get...forget that the deck can switch because it still needs to go to battle and the box doesn't help you do that. *if* you sleaze a province, you're 25% closer to military while being 5%-15% closer to honour victory, while *if* you win an opposed battle you're 25%-50% close to a military win.... its win more.

also, we have at least 4 maidens in ee that have 4PHR and you only need to buy a single one for honour to be able to get everyone else.

also keychain or the FL stay home tactician will also net you enough honour to buy even 6phr maidens on the cheap...1 body at full and you're golden.

just try it... you'll see that paragon cards have high focus values and make excellent tactician cards as well... throw in some cards that make ji-yun a tactician and laugh...
I would say its safe to assume that a few of the Paragon/BM actions will have honour gains on them, so winning an opposed fight will result in progress towards an honour victory through actions, resolution and the SH.

PotM doesn't exactly help with attacking, but because it benefits from it attacking, it has inherint synergy. It's just not good synergy. Like Yesugei, I too do not look forward to playing military out of a blank SH, but I dont plan to dilute my decks trying to run different keyword support.

I really hate having a bunch of cards for one keyword in hand, when I have no one with that keyword in play. Almost as much as I hate flipping guys I cant afford because I am below their HR's.
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Utaku Hidaki
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Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:02 pm

Shinjo Dalu wrote:I would say its safe to assume that a few of the Paragon/BM actions will have honour gains on them, so winning an opposed fight will result in progress towards an honour victory through actions, resolution and the SH.

PotM doesn't exactly help with attacking, but because it benefits from it attacking, it has inherint synergy. It's just not good synergy. Like Yesugei, I too do not look forward to playing military out of a blank SH, but I dont plan to dilute my decks trying to run different keyword support.

I really hate having a bunch of cards for one keyword in hand, when I have no one with that keyword in play. Almost as much as I hate flipping guys I cant afford because I am below their HR's.
I've always taken a different approach when deck building. I've run 3 spells with only 4 shugenja in a deck, and think nothing of sprinkling commander, tactician and scout actions in the same deck as long as I have 4-6 personalities in the deck that can make use of them. For one thing, it forces my opponent to guess when targeting my personalities when trying to eliminate certain keyword actions from my options as opposed to removing the most threatening personality otherwise.

Different philosophies on deck building, I find, lead to more interesting deck comparisons and designs.
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Grendak
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Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:03 pm

Shinjo Dalu wrote: I really hate having a bunch of cards for one keyword in hand, when I have no one with that keyword in play. Almost as much as I hate flipping guys I cant afford because I am below their HR's.
I think his point is to sprinkle in some Tac. just to get the card draw/force bump, and play Paragon actions. This will be easy to do especially at the start since we won't have the ability to field a full deck of BM's until a few expansions come out. I personally will most likely be running Naleesh-sama and Ki-Chang xp the whole arc.

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Rei
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Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:16 pm

Grendak wrote:
Shinjo Dalu wrote: I really hate having a bunch of cards for one keyword in hand, when I have no one with that keyword in play. Almost as much as I hate flipping guys I cant afford because I am below their HR's.
I think his point is to sprinkle in some Tac. just to get the card draw/force bump, and play Paragon actions. This will be easy to do especially at the start since we won't have the ability to field a full deck of BM's until a few expansions come out. I personally will most likely be running Naleesh-sama and Ki-Chang xp the whole arc.
This is the point of switching boxes, running 4-6 Tacticians with movement type abilities that can sit at home and draw cards with your box. All you need to do is meet the Requirement of one tactician in play.

At the start of the arc, I expect there to be some really shitty choices for personalities for running an entire theme deck. Every clan should run into this issue. There's just not going to be enough good personalities to field an entire deck out of one trait. This is why making the design decision to take advantage of an easily playable box is a good idea. You put those slots to a very good use as they are no longer a weak point in your deck.

Having access to reliable card draw is a huge advantage, even more so early arc. I'd go for efficiency and card draw with the tactician box, then wait for the BM box to become broken later on when things are a bit more consistent.


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Shinjo Dalu
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Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:54 pm

As Hidaki said, different approaches to deck building for different people. Looking at the personality base we have already seen for EE and I dont think I will have to worry too much about adding extra keywords. I will have to add in some filler personalities (Dak-ho, Horibe), but I cant see me trying to dedicate Fate side resources to them, unless the Fate side is equally under developed.
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Rei
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Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:16 pm

Again, the box is run solely on a single tactician trait, which is a dynasty requirement. I would say to test it out, getting access to the power cards unicorn BM/paragons can run more easily may win out over extra honour. Also, putting 3x Gaining Experience into your deck might not hurt you at all. It's all food for thought.

I think that if AEG rules the box in your favor, you will just find people having to play around it, making it a win more card. The tactician box is a fate card, an action that your opponent cannot see or anticipate or play around. Both boxes advance your win condition, but I find that the tact box is extreamly more useful and helpful, in all circumstances, when your winning, when your losing, when your stalemate building. This box will give you a resource assuming you Have a tactician, which will be hard to get rid of once he's in play. The BM box only helps you if your in a position to attack

I fear the tact box much more then the honour gain one.

And I really like The unicorn champion, as mentioned Above, there is lots of ways to get rid of single personalities, so if there is someone she can't deal with, sundering strike his ass.



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Bayushi Ken
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Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:20 pm

Well at least she's better than that chump of a dragon champion... he doesn't even have Cavalry!!!
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Horiuchi Meimei
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Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:00 pm

I don't know about that. Having a Champ with free card-draw is pretty darn good. Oh, and a fairly reliable unit-kill action too.

I'm happy to see that we aren't the only military Clan with a Champion who has an above-starting HR. At least we're not the only one. ;)
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Shinjo Dun
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Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:18 pm

Bayushi Ken wrote:Well at least she's better than that chump of a dragon champion... he doesn't even have Cavalry!!!
You mean the champ with built in card draw with no cost (which, by himself, almost makes him the best champ), a kill action (compared to a bow action), one gold cheaper, actually solos provinces due to 2 more force (which Naleesh does *NOT* do... there have been MANY times I've been stuck looking at a 6F champ and a handful of 1FV and 2 FV cards)?

If you think Naleesh is better than him, you need to reexamine how you evaluate cards.

So far, there's not a favorable comparison between Naleesh and *any* champion posted, with 2 to go.

Moto Muck
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Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:41 pm

dun and mei-mei have it right- he's 2nd or 3rd best champ so far- he just flows into every one of their decks- unrestricted card draw for all their decks- 8F solos a lot of provs

out of PoV, he becomes kanpeki using the kiho he just drew on you and then follows up w/ duel (granted monks have alot of low FV's but he can still easily bully duel low to avg chumps)- he's easy to pay for even w/ the high HR due to Temple of Harmony- oh yeah they can be cav real easy too w/ thoughts of wind which gives a +4F w/ a ring out so he doesn't need tact

out of foothills he has kensai and again that high chi so he'll be dueling w/ 6-7C again easy enough to beat low to avg and even some high chi guys- not to mention the negation that deck has

out of watchful eye he turns into a monster duelist during the action and battle phase and also digs for all your important duels and focus effects

dragons breath is prob the only one he doesn't just go w/ perfectly- i think that deck wants lots of cheap bodies out- but still that card draw will prob be worth it, esp mid to late game

his HR is hardly an issue for their honor decks as they can gain a fair amount of it outside of battle- i'm not even going to talk about enlightenment w/ this guy.....

his only downsides are the 10HR which might be tough (sometimes out of monk) and the low to mid FV's for kensai and monk that will stop him from consistenly beating 4C+ guys

he's no kanpeki or hiromi but easily smushes naleesh- no wonder why she likes him: He's awesome and she "sucks"

Grendak
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Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:25 pm

As far as the Dragon's Breath deck goes, remember that honor decks are supposed to have to shift to attacking vs. dishonor. His 8F will go a long way to helping them achieve that. Though the reletively high chi of courtiers/magistrates could mitigate his battle action.

Looking at the art...he in no way deserves a babe like our Naleesh-sama. Go climb a mountain Dragon boy!

Bayushi Kakita
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Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:31 am

Bayushi Ken wrote:Well at least she's better than that chump of a dragon champion... he doesn't even have Cavalry!!!
I know what you mean!
I mean he isn't even a Shugenja or a magistrate or a Death Priest! He's Awful! :lol:

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Moto Ah-Ron
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Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:33 pm

Moto Naranbaatar wrote:It wasn't ruled.

It is because the rules for the Battle Resolution resolves in separate steps. You'll first be destroying the enemy units (trait activated), and just after this you will destroy his province (trait again).
I think this needs its own thread, but I disagree with your assessment:
L5R Rules Wiki wrote:2. Effects of Resolution: Follow one of the procedures under this heading, in order, depending on the battle’s outcome.

If the Attacker wins:

i. The Attacker simultaneously destroys all cards in the defending army.

ii. If the attacking army's total Force when the outcome was determined was greater than the defending army’s total Force plus the Province Strength of the current battlefield’s province, the Attacker destroys the province.

iii. The Attacker gains Honor from resolution equal to twice the number of cards in the defending army that were destroyed by the effects of resolution.
EXCEPTION: If any dishonorable Personalities are in the winning army, see Honorable and dishonorable.
Those aren't separate steps; they are sub-steps in a single main step. I don't think the box works the way you think it does.

EDIT: I should also include the following:
L5R Rules Wiki wrote:Sources of effects

Destruction of Provinces and cards, Honor gains, and rehonoring, as results of the above procedures, are all effects of battle resolution. Such effects come "from" battle resolution and, if the player causing the effect was on the winning side, "by winning" the battle.

Card effects that may be applied "in" or "during" battle resolution are not effects of, and do not come "from," resolution or "by winning" the battle.
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Moto Muck
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Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:29 pm

Moto Ah-Ron wrote:Stuff
While it hasn't been officially ruled, it has been hinted at that the trait can double dip for honor- once for battle resoution and then for province destruction. See here:http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=94275

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