EE Preview: Moto Naleesh

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Double Decker
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Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:43 pm

Shinjo Dun wrote:3) Doesn't truely solo provinces(which 2 of the three previewed Champions do - and Makoto is a machine that doesn't need it (at least, I'm assuming he is - they are making Kyuden Otomo XP). Even 7F wouldn't have been too much of an issue - then she at least takes provinces against some clans.
Neither does Chen unless you can pitch a card for his Tactician or a has an item/follower attached that has from +1 to +3 worth of force. But because she's Paragon she can get a 1F cavalry follower as well as 2 honor FOR FREE when you engage at a province.
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Moto Tadaka
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Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Coopernicus wrote:I think her trait makes her more awesome than anticipated. She can attack and then always be open for A Perfect Moment. She is also a Paragon Tactician which opens up some REALLY awesome card selections (I already wanted to do Para/Tacts anyways). Her action bows an entire unit and THEN checks for attachments to kill. Them having to be non-Cavalry though is very aggravating due to Scourge of the Sea and Champion of Thunder being immune to destruction.

She potentially has more protection than any of the other Clan Champs due to being Cavalry, Paragon, and a Tactician (Consideration + Iron Will).
I agree that the combination of paragon/tactician is awesome, in concept. But pragmatically if you built a deck around having both Paragon and tactician strategies, you now have to have both tactician and paragon personalities (other than Naleesh) to be able to play those actions. You can't build a pure pragon deck, and put the tactician strategies in anticipating them for Naleesh. If she never comes up then you end up with a hand of worthlessness. I thought Kuon had the same issue in the last arc. He had keywords to fit in most of the Crab themes, but if you put him in a theme then you have to end up ignoring the other traits that you don't use, becuase there aren't any other cards that are dual+ traited like that as well.
The traits give her the versatility to be in multple themes, but once she's in that theme, the other traits aren't going to mean much (generally speaking).

Shinjo Dun
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Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:59 pm

Double Decker wrote:
Shinjo Dun wrote:3) Doesn't truely solo provinces(which 2 of the three previewed Champions do - and Makoto is a machine that doesn't need it (at least, I'm assuming he is - they are making Kyuden Otomo XP). Even 7F wouldn't have been too much of an issue - then she at least takes provinces against some clans.
Neither does Chen unless you can pitch a card for his Tactician or a has an item/follower attached that has from +1 to +3 worth of force. But because she's Paragon she can get a 1F cavalry follower as well as 2 honor FOR FREE when you engage at a province.
Yep, and without his trait (and the fact he's almost an autowin against 2 clans), he'd be overcosted too. Chen's been cut at various points in this arc from my decks because he just wasn't that good.

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Shinjo Dalu
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Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:16 pm

While I certainly wouldn't add tactical cards to a Paragon deck just for Naleesh, it wouldnt be totally insane to put Grateful Reward in a tactician deck, especially if we have a bunch of 3F tacticians. Not saying you should, but if there arent any better cards, its not terrible.

The fact of the matter is, she is a strong personality with a good trait and a powerful battle action. She has the relevant keywords and (despite statements to the contrary) she solos provinces.

Wait until you play with her fully before complaining about her being poor. Early arc a 6F Cavalry Tactician will go along way, ever for 13 gold.
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Moto Naranbaatar
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Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:03 pm

Moto Tadaka wrote:The traits give her the versatility to be in multple themes, but once she's in that theme, the other traits aren't going to mean much (generally speaking).
I haven't thought of it this way. But it is true. Her gold cost sums every keyword, but depending on the deck you're playing, you'll have "dead" keywords.

That makes me even more disappointed about her card.
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Coopernicus
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:01 am

If you want her to have a generic kill action, then play Spirit of the Paragon. She is also the only Clan Champion so far that can play Cast Aside the Weak to kill something. She is also the only Clan Champ that can play Iron Will. The number of actions that actually kill personalities OVER 5F is relatively few.

Hiromi will cry when he runs into Kensai/Commander decks with expensive attachments. Have you seen all of the duel negation that the Miroki has to contend with? Kisada looks to be a beast but his actions can be negated.

I think she will perform plenty well regardless of the deck she runs out of.
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Utaku Hidaki
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:28 am

Spirit of the Paragon bows, not kills.
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Shinjo Hughes
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:46 pm

As far as being Paragon Tactician I think it does allow you to use Grateful Reward and Cast Aside the Weak in Tactician decks. With Dishonor being a lot stronger next arc, I foresee Ji-Yun being in Tactician decks for a good chunk of the arc. Possibly her and Naleesh in Commanders as well.

I could see running Tairu and maybe Junpei in Paragons as well early arc. Which may warrant 2x consideration.
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SpookyElectric
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:07 pm

Moto Naranbaatar wrote:
Moto Tadaka wrote:The traits give her the versatility to be in multple themes, but once she's in that theme, the other traits aren't going to mean much (generally speaking).
I haven't thought of it this way. But it is true. Her gold cost sums every keyword, but depending on the deck you're playing, you'll have "dead" keywords.

That makes me even more disappointed about her card.
Tactician is never a "dead" keyword. It has an action built-in from the rulebook. You don't need tactical actions to benefit from a Tactician in your Paragon deck.

In fact, I'd assert that Tactician is useful in virtually EVERY deck. You'll almost always have a card you can pitch for extra force.
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reinoe
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:18 pm

Coopernicus wrote:If you want her to have a generic kill action, then play Spirit of the Paragon. She is also the only Clan Champion so far that can play Cast Aside the Weak to kill something. She is also the only Clan Champ that can play Iron Will. The number of actions that actually kill personalities OVER 5F is relatively few.

Hiromi will cry when he runs into Kensai/Commander decks with expensive attachments. Have you seen all of the duel negation that the Miroki has to contend with? Kisada looks to be a beast but his actions can be negated.

I think she will perform plenty well regardless of the deck she runs out of.
Let's also not forget that she has a lack of synergy with some decktypes:some subtle and some obvious. She has little reason to be run in a shugenja deck unless you just want beefy force. She doesn't help gain honor from P.O.T.M. In a commander deck you ask the question "what is her paragon trait doing for me?" Granted all the clan champions have this to some degree, but since Unicorn has 3 1/2 military themes it shouldn't have been hard to create a clan champion with more synergy.

Also you can give Hiromi attachments and he becomes even better.

evilmerlin
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:33 pm

Her synergy comes from her keywords. Not from her abilities. By having all of the relevant keywords, it means she can be slotted in 3 of our decks easily.

Sure she doesn't gain honour from PotM but she is a Paragon and would be able to use ALL of the paragon cards in the deck. What's wrong with that?

The thing is that how are you going to create a personality that can slot into 3 themes without having keywords that won't be used in the others?

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Moto Naranbaatar
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:27 pm

SpookyElectric wrote:
Moto Naranbaatar wrote:Tactician is never a "dead" keyword. It has an action built-in from the rulebook. You don't need tactical actions to benefit from a Tactician in your Paragon deck.

In fact, I'd assert that Tactician is useful in virtually EVERY deck. You'll almost always have a card you can pitch for extra force.
I totally agree with you.

I didn't name the keywords in my post, but if it would help in understanding what I meant, they are Commander and Paragon.
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Moto Jahk-Fwah
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:37 pm

uhhh guys.. don't forget that our paragons SHOULD be played out of the tactician box. don't use that paragon box garbage and splash tacs in your paragon build for free cards.

ugh!
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Double Decker
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:14 am

Moto Jahk-Fwah wrote:uhhh guys.. don't forget that our paragons SHOULD be played out of the tactician box. don't use that paragon box garbage and splash tacs in your paragon build for free cards.

ugh!
Are you sure? I admit that The Plains of the Maiden isn't my preferred stronghold in EE, however with the way the Battle Maiden box is worded, if there are any enemy units at the current battlefield's resolution, would we not get the honor for killing them AND the honor for each battle maiden who attacked?
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Shinjo Dalu
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:58 am

Moto Jahk-Fwah wrote:uhhh guys.. don't forget that our paragons SHOULD be played out of the tactician box. don't use that paragon box garbage and splash tacs in your paragon build for free cards.

ugh!
Eh......not sure about that one man. Its fairly safe to assume that most of the Paragons we see will be based on the 5 starting honour. So deliberately running them out of a box that not only has zero synergy with the personality base, but also makes the Personality base inherently more expensive (at least in the early game) seems like a particularly bad choice. Maybe the Commander box may be of more use in a fight, but again, I cant shake the feeling that having 5 starting honour will be helpful to a switch deck.

While PotM isn't exactly my favourite SH that we have, it would be what I would try running BM's out of for the time being, it is a switch deck, and I know that that SH will gain about 6-10 honour a game, which isnt terrible, especially as doing so means you are hurting the opponent. Granted, I do believe that most games will be won militarily.

Also, yes you gain the honour from both resolution destruction and from the box.
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evilmerlin
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:40 am

Really? When was that ruled?

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Moto Naranbaatar
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:47 am

It wasn't ruled.

It is because the rules for the Battle Resolution resolves in separate steps. You'll first be destroying the enemy units (trait activated), and just after this you will destroy his province (trait again).
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Shinjo Dun
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:29 am

Moto Naranbaatar wrote:It wasn't ruled.

It is because the rules for the Battle Resolution resolves in separate steps. You'll first be destroying the enemy units (trait activated), and just after this you will destroy his province (trait again).
And, fwiw, it won't be ruled on until EE is officially released (unless someone from AEG wants to elaborate before then).

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Ide Yesugei
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:20 am

@dalu I agree with you but I loathe to play and miltary based stronghold without a military action printed on it.

But I am looking forward to that ruling since most paragon /bm decks actually remove presence (via kill) makes all those bow actions start to look a lot better.
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Moto Tadaka
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:46 pm

SpookyElectric wrote:
Moto Naranbaatar wrote:
Moto Tadaka wrote:The traits give her the versatility to be in multple themes, but once she's in that theme, the other traits aren't going to mean much (generally speaking).
I haven't thought of it this way. But it is true. Her gold cost sums every keyword, but depending on the deck you're playing, you'll have "dead" keywords.

That makes me even more disappointed about her card.
Tactician is never a "dead" keyword. It has an action built-in from the rulebook. You don't need tactical actions to benefit from a Tactician in your Paragon deck.

In fact, I'd assert that Tactician is useful in virtually EVERY deck. You'll almost always have a card you can pitch for extra force.
I would agree with you that Tactician is a keyword that can be used in all deck types. It's effectiveness though can be reduced. In a commander deck many of the cards have low focus values, and a paragon deck has both low and high.

I think that the point is this: if you are playing her in a Tact deck she has 2 keywords that are most likely not being used. if you play her in either of the other themes she has 1 keyword that will most likely not be used and a keyword that will be used at maybe 50% of it potential. While the tactician is a useful keyword, if it is not in a tactician deck it loses some of the effectiveness/power it would normally carry when played in its own theme.

The other option you have is to limit what cards you would normally put in that theme in order to accomodate her tactician keyword. Either way effectiveness is lost, but her cost remains the same.

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